(OV) Putins brutaler Deal mit Berlin. Mit Evan Gershkovich (2/2)

00:00:00: They pull the hood off eventually, ask me who I work for.

00:00:03: I say The Wall Street Journal.

00:00:06: they put the hood back on beat.

00:00:08: my midsection pulled a head of.

00:00:09: it often

00:00:10: beat you up

00:00:11: and don't really beat me up.

00:00:12: They try to pummel fist here think there basically trying to tell you we're in charge.

00:00:17: You know take this seriously.

00:00:21: part one of my interview with Evan Gershko which was imprisoned in Russia for five hundred days Was already very intense.

00:00:29: And now Part two, and I can't promise you it will be even more intense.

00:00:35: You sit in the restaurant eating a borscht or what?

00:00:39: So its an American style steakhouse.

00:00:41: It's called Bukowski Grill.

00:00:43: Another source of mine at Yucatranburg had long before recommended it Had gone there once for lunch was really good.

00:00:49: i Was eating grilled barbecue chicken And he the source that had burger.

00:00:56: so is actually...and y'know..its a faux american steak Steakhouse in the style of there's deer heads on the walls.

00:01:02: It's kind of you know, I think they're trying to imitate Texas.

00:01:05: So even though your central Russia doesn't really feel like And

00:01:10: it's and he hands you over this document.

00:01:12: so he

00:01:13: had said.

00:01:13: He had said basically You know uh?

00:01:16: Can i want to bring some.

00:01:18: i wanna Bring some papers for meeting To help you understand what we're talking about.

00:01:21: i said well don't you Know i was worried About the source at This period naively obviously In retrospect and not myself, I didn't want him to do anything incriminating for himself.

00:01:30: And so I said well most bring some notes if that helps you explain something.

00:01:35: So he immediately hands me these papers folded up eight papers in A-four sheets of paper.

00:01:44: He's drawn on them what look like basically official tables.

00:01:50: That is the game because You've received compromising material, basically at that point.

00:01:58: And so then sitting there and I in that moment the room kind of wobbles...I think i realized something's completely off?

00:02:06: I don't know if it's human instinct or what but I kinda convinced myself It's fine!

00:02:12: So I'm taking notes- I have my notebook.. I am taking notes....and THEN I'M FACING MY BACKS TO THE WALL...FACING HIM AND HE'S FACEING ME AND THE RESTAURANT'S KIND OF HAPPED EMPTY.

00:02:23: We went up four PM.

00:02:25: It's kind of between lunch and dinner.

00:02:26: So it sort of, you know before the evening rush to have empty and on my head goes up because I hear the sound of marching feet.

00:02:33: And so I look up and I see six men Marching in

00:02:37: was weapons.

00:02:38: No They're just marching at that point all ii.

00:02:40: Just sees six man is sort of walking In this double file line?

00:02:43: And then they say something i think Is really smart for a security service agent.

00:02:47: they Say The point and they said i think we booked That table.

00:02:50: one Of them says Which is obviously Yeah, which is a really weird thing to say in half-empty restaurant.

00:02:58: So we... I get up and the source gets up And they turn You're sort of frozen on place like you booked this table?

00:03:04: Then they turned because They kind of walked from other hall.

00:03:07: then turned.

00:03:08: See that Bala clava's on.

00:03:11: so then they approach.

00:03:12: Um i think it all completely dawns On me.

00:03:15: what's going on?

00:03:16: i start pushing The papers To the side.

00:03:18: i think the sources completely screwed Like he's done.

00:03:21: uh i Think He's gonna be arrested and they're going to be interrogating me about him.

00:03:25: But as they approach, They yell out to me you are under arrest by the Federal Security Service of Russian Federation which is FSB, formerly KGB And As their dragging down on the ground I noticed a source sort of stepping back kind of melting into this group of people.

00:03:42: So...I'm under arrest.

00:03:43: obviously now The fear's all in me.

00:03:45: i've forgotten about him.

00:03:46: What did

00:03:46: your think at that moment?

00:03:48: Just thinking my own safety basically and then dragged me up to van.

00:03:51: I think, okay.

00:03:53: Are they going to be roughing me up?

00:03:54: Did the handcuffed you?

00:03:56: They handcuffed me... First thing pulled my sweater over of head but then in car put a hood on top.

00:04:04: so i'm sitting there as fan and thinking maybe there's way get out this misunderstanding or they're gonna roughed me up or kicked me off country whatever did

00:04:12: have all your stuff with you.

00:04:14: mobile phone

00:04:16: that was all at table took away.

00:04:20: They said they were the FSB, so I'm really scared because if it's local police that might rough you up and take you to a station or call Moscow.

00:04:29: Moscow says let them go.

00:04:31: this is a foreign correspondent Or they'll kick your out of country whatever.

00:04:34: And when they say the FSP That's what happens right?

00:04:39: It's something planned from on high.

00:04:42: But i am still thinking maybe there are some way out of this.

00:04:45: They pull the hood off.

00:04:46: eventually.

00:04:47: Ask me who I work for.

00:04:48: Say The Wall Street Journal.

00:04:51: They put the hood back on, beat my midsection.

00:04:54: Pulled a head off and

00:04:55: said- They beat you up?

00:04:56: They don't really beat me up.

00:04:57: they pummel fists here.

00:04:59: I think their basically trying to tell you we're in charge.

00:05:02: You know take this seriously.

00:05:05: Stop pull the hood of an ask were gonna repeat.

00:05:07: question who do work for?

00:05:08: so then it dawns on Me what there accusing me right It's kind of obvious at that point are saying Who Do You Really Work For?

00:05:17: So That Point Im Petrified.

00:05:18: I think, you know if they really think i'm a spy.

00:05:20: If this is what they think because that's what their accusing me of They're going to be torturing and interrogating at the station.

00:05:27: I've reported on cases like these for years.

00:05:29: For five years people in even regular cases get taken into local police station sat on chair tied up to it Electrodes are placed under bodies and shocked with electricity until

00:05:43: Confests

00:05:44: confess to whatever crime they want them, too.

00:05:46: I think in this case if they think i'm a spy They want me to not confess.

00:05:49: They want Me To give Them information Which I don't have or say something incriminating about the source.

00:05:54: but when we get to The station?

00:05:56: They just hand me my charges of espionage and they Don't ask even anything About the source.

00:06:01: so that image Of him Stepping it into the crowd untouched then becomes clear to me.

00:06:06: I realized oh This was a setup.

00:06:08: And I really real quickly realize.

00:06:11: Clearly they want me for a swap as a kind of pawn an asset and I You know Feel like a bit like an idiot.

00:06:22: frankly, you know

00:06:23: so at that moment.

00:06:24: You were on a police at the police station

00:06:27: F is B station So their local station in Yucatern.

00:06:29: Yeah,

00:06:31: yeah They tell you you under arrest under arrest of espionage?

00:06:36: Yep And what happened up?

00:06:38: we're going to bring you to Moscow, and that's what they do.

00:06:41: So their highest profile cases are get taken to Lefortevo in Moscow the most... Their high security prison where the FSB keeps people investigating.

00:06:52: so they just bring me on a flight an overnight flight to Moscow.

00:06:57: You can take into.

00:06:58: I met mine.

00:07:00: The investigator In Russian system.

00:07:02: detective in American system is split between operatives who make arresting the investigator investigates it And he tells me, you're gonna wanna cooperate with the investigation.

00:07:16: Plead guilty otherwise your going to be here for years.

00:07:18: I investigated Paul Whalen's case.

00:07:19: this American.

00:07:21: Like that was a lawyer?

00:07:23: No

00:07:23: his an investigator.

00:07:25: so hes kind of like detective.

00:07:27: He works or would be police but its the FSB.

00:07:30: it'd bfv i think in Germany.

00:07:33: and hes saying you want plead guilty when go court You want to work with us.

00:07:37: cooperate or you won't get swapped.

00:07:39: is what he just says right away.

00:07:42: And I say it doesn't work like that, you know He's Because he's like.

00:07:46: I investigated Paul Whale and this American who has been in prison for four years at this point.

00:07:50: And it didn't work Like That, you Know Who's gonna back him?

00:07:53: It's a public kind of outpouring Of support, uh-you know, it's not britain grinders case.

00:07:59: the basketball players swap too Had A lot of Support In The u.s From LGBT groups because she's a lesbian African-American groups because she's black and also just the NBA, right?

00:08:12: WNBA was supporting her Dennis Rodman And if you had a lot of kind of right groups that would support.

00:08:16: or in my case I'm a journalist.

00:08:18: And i think That's what Russia wanted is another thing to talk about as they wanted this big splash A Kind Of Loud Case so then They Could The Value Would Go Up and So.

00:08:28: And Then We go To Court.

00:08:32: That

00:08:36: was in Moscow then.

00:08:39: And when it's the first time you appeared publicly, in court?

00:08:44: Publicly

00:08:45: three weeks later...

00:08:46: We see this photo of you smiling and I remember that Ukraine back there saw these photos like wow what a brave man!

00:08:55: Seeing him smiling on his court.

00:08:58: What must go through his

00:08:59: head?!

00:09:01: So basically at that moment Don't torture and don't interrogate me.

00:09:06: Just charge with the espionage that they bring Me to Moscow in this conversation about swaps is so open We have a TV of it Tv In my cell.

00:09:15: on The second night I turn It On And on the main you know One Of the Main News Shows Propaganda Shows.

00:09:21: They're Discussing My Case, and one of them

00:09:23: Is A Deluxe Free Prison Because Usually

00:09:26: So the Forteville is an interesting prison?

00:09:28: Its On the One Hand One of the Most Difficult Psychologically Or a Tiny Cell bigger than this room.

00:09:34: This is not a cell?

00:09:36: Well, you know but it's tiny right and so You're in there all day.

00:09:40: They take you out only one hour a day for a walk which isn't another cell on the roof of the prison Which just has metal netting over it no ceiling and so psychologically It's really difficult.

00:09:51: Where are your loaned?

00:09:52: I was alone for the first two weeks.

00:09:54: they call it quarantine in Russian Prison.

00:09:57: They don't want diseases spreading to other inmates And he's kind of like in COVID fourteen days.

00:10:01: So, they keep you alone and then give a cellmate.

00:10:03: At that point I'm alone.

00:10:06: but it's also the best run prison.

00:10:07: It is cleanest like in other prisons And i'll see later when go to second prison.

00:10:12: doesn't have cockroaches and rats which a lot of prisoners have.

00:10:17: Its very well organized and its kind their show prison In way.

00:10:22: You have TV and turn on news channel as cynical as sounds one host saying We've replenished our exchange fund.

00:10:33: And the Exchange Fund is the term that Russians use for foreign citizens they keep to then swap.

00:10:40: So early on it starts, you know It's becoming clear That I'm not being kept as some... You don't really think They want from me To be scared of in terms of my bodily harm here.

00:10:56: and so when i am court Three weeks later What im thinking about?

00:11:01: My family, my loved ones is freaking out first off.

00:11:05: First of all they you know it's a black box.

00:11:08: You know prison to them?

00:11:09: They don't know what's going on inside there.

00:11:11: And so in the one hand It's my one chance to show them I'm okay But on the other hand The global news media Is following this and i want To send a sign...I am not allowed to speak In court..They told me that I can't Speak!

00:11:23: ...And I Want to signal What I think Of This case Which is you Know ..This Is Theater This A Fabricated Case with the kind of smile, a defiance.

00:11:35: I want people to see that this is what we think about they've done.

00:11:40: After you understood that Russians wanted exchange you did it make more scared or relaxed?

00:11:50: It's a dual feeling.

00:11:52: More relaxed in the sense of an espionage case and Russia runs from twelve to twenty years in prison.

00:11:57: You don't plead guilty, which I wouldn't plead Guilty because i'm innocent.

00:12:01: Twenty years in prison is a long time.

00:12:04: So it makes you feel more relaxed In the sense of okay?

00:12:07: I've reported on hostage swap cases before.

00:12:10: The britney griner case took ten months.

00:12:12: Okay this isn't going to be written Griner but I hope It's not.

00:12:16: you know five years.

00:12:17: I hope it's a year and a half to three.

00:12:20: You start calming yourself down And think that can manage.

00:12:22: But the difficult thing was really early On.

00:12:24: assume being taken as another American to package, to ask for the Tiergartenkiller here in Germany.

00:12:31: To put pressure on Berlin- Vadym Krasnikov who came here in a twenty nineteen murdered somebody in broad daylight and Kleiner Tiergarden Park was caught.

00:12:42: he was sent an assignment from Russia uh...and was caught and sent into like killed a Georgian citizen, a Chechen in unassignment by the FSB Caught sentence to life in prison at the end of twenty-twenty one.

00:12:55: Russia's trying to get him back and they're asking The Americans just sent Paul Whelan, so I'm really early thinking...

00:13:01: So you connect the dots already back into prison?

00:13:04: Connect the dots!

00:13:06: And what i worry about is..I remember telling my lawyers that I say I don't think Berlin gonna go for this basically....and so im worried about time.

00:13:15: That's what Im really worried about.

00:13:17: Who was your lawyer?

00:13:19: how did

00:13:20: So?

00:13:21: the Wall Street Journal's Moscow Bureau had.

00:13:24: We basically have a law firm sort of you know, standard white-collar law for them that we could turn to and so they You know discussed amongst themselves right away.

00:13:35: should we take on this case?

00:13:36: And then head senior partner said yeah There is no question.

00:13:39: We take on the case despite their risks.

00:13:41: I had these two lovely women very kind Very funny very smart Tatiana Maria in Russia.

00:13:50: Ninety-nine point seven percent of cases end in a conviction.

00:13:54: You know, there's no quills.

00:13:56: so you know your.

00:13:57: you're going to prison.

00:13:59: There's No.

00:14:00: like you don't sit there and meet and discuss.

00:14:02: So

00:14:02: what

00:14:03: do we need?

00:14:05: I had you know A human rights lawyer Had told me for a story i was doing not long before my arrest about ilia yashin this russian opposition politician who actually ends up In the swap.

00:14:15: uh in my swap.

00:14:16: eventually she said oh a lawyer can only hold your hand While you're being put in prison a kind of support system.

00:14:23: So they were these amazing an amazing support system.

00:14:26: They had a sense of humor, they were kind of.

00:14:28: You know my social life because I wasn't allowed visits from anybody.

00:14:32: just my lawyers You know?

00:14:34: I can get letters and out-of-the-prison but don't have phone calls.

00:14:37: so they would come visit me each week.

00:14:40: And yeah, there are two amazing people.

00:14:44: what kind people that you meet in the prison.

00:14:47: So, on the first prison we were alone at the cell.

00:14:49: and then what time or like how many months after?

00:14:53: You were transferred to the other prisoner.

00:14:55: why I mean so?

00:14:57: so FSB investigations take twelve months to eighteen months.

00:15:03: That's basically there a year-a-year-and-a half.

00:15:05: We had always assumed that you know Russia.

00:15:08: we says we don't swap somebody until they're convicted.

00:15:10: So he'd always assumed no matter what all go to trial it just might take three months, if the swap talks aren't going well.

00:15:18: It may take longer.

00:15:19: so for I'm in the first prison for fifteen months.

00:15:23: Swap Talks clearly are taking their time.

00:15:26: FSB is drawing out my whole investigation.

00:15:28: was they checked My handwriting?

00:15:34: My voice whether as mentally sane and Whether i'd received classified information And then They interviewed six witnesses, that took them fifteen months.

00:15:44: So it's the entirety of the investigation.

00:15:45: so they're sort drawing out and then you go in Russia to return To a place where you ostensibly committed your crime.

00:15:52: I was sent back to Katerinburg to face trial.

00:15:55: That is why i'm going into second prison.

00:15:56: In first prison It has very high security And only ever have one cellmate.

00:16:02: But if people read my book They are basically this person Just a regular criminal was, you know doing weapons dealing.

00:16:19: Just

00:16:20: do regular-

00:16:21: Just regular criminal weapons deal from around Moscow and they don't have this old fashioned system of the way they move you round prison where your moved let's say for your shower or walk to see lawyers with guards who snap and click to notify their colleagues that they're moving the prisoner, so you are not allowed even see any other prisoners.

00:16:43: I'm taking the court back and forth on my own.

00:16:46: So i don't... Other than My cellmates The prison guards And then the FSB officials I get to meet That's it really?

00:16:56: So the second prison is much more loose.

00:16:58: It's Not-So-High security..I meant To be there mostly in solitary confinement ..and Im brought to court alone.

00:17:05: but Or it's called a feeder in the Russian prison.

00:17:09: It says small square where they open to put in food letters different things A lot of porridge soup and porridge is main thing, you know Kasha has made out of oatmeal buckwheat barley soups some stuff floating in them But it wasn't very tasty.

00:17:27: not very tasty as livable.

00:17:29: I mean human beings adapt You know what?

00:17:30: I mean we.

00:17:31: you know two good situations but also the bad situations.

00:17:34: when he finds ways You adapt it pretty early and you're hungry, that's your food.

00:17:39: And the feeders?

00:17:40: they would keep open there to let us have air move and we can stick our heads out speak to each other.

00:17:47: What did you talk about?

00:17:49: So in that second prison on my hallway everybody was essentially a political prisoner.

00:17:57: There were political prisoners Russians who had protested the war.

00:17:59: There are seven members of Russian military who refused to fight.

00:18:03: Who'd be tossed into prison?

00:18:05: There was a Ukrainian civilian that they had accused of espionage, just taken him from Russian-occupied Ukraine and brought them there.

00:18:12: A lot of Muslims, people they accused of supporting terrorists which I think are accusing to get their numbers up.

00:18:20: We talked about the political situation The war Just life in prison Stuff we're reading.

00:18:28: So it was much more social there.

00:18:31: Were you afraid that people would listen or officers would listen?

00:18:35: No, because I had nothing else to share.

00:18:37: basically what i have to share is an American journalist working on a sensitive story during wartime.

00:18:43: It was risky.

00:18:43: perhaps it was reckless.

00:18:45: even They framed me as a spy to trade with me and they had nothing to share.

00:18:51: The first cellmate I assumed was placed to sort of listen in but its not like anything can be shared about how intelligence services work, resources or anything.

00:18:59: So I wasn't worried in that way.

00:19:02: the only time i was worried about what I said Was...I would meet.

00:19:05: The US Ambassador could visit me once a month

00:19:09: and- Was he's the ONLY one who is able to visit?

00:19:12: Other than my lawyers?

00:19:13: yeah so Could Visit Me Once A Month.

00:19:15: We Get To Speak In A Room Where Prison Officials Sit Record The Meeting And I Was Always Worried About Saying Something Kind Of Offhand that could be used for propaganda purposes.

00:19:29: Let's say they leak a video online where I and the US ambassador are saying something, you know Kind of silly or can get taken out of context was very careful.

00:19:38: They asked me once the prison officials What i thought of Vladimir Putin?

00:19:42: And so had to be very diplomatic and careful.

00:19:45: The officials ask you yeah,

00:19:46: they wanted to know what I thought

00:19:49: like What why

00:19:50: I don't know.

00:19:51: I think they're curious.

00:19:51: They have an American and they want to know what we think of him with the outside world.

00:19:55: Okay, that was not like

00:19:58: yeah Yeah interrogation anything.

00:20:00: And so I was very careful in how i answered because their video What did

00:20:02: you say?

00:20:03: So I said well it Was funny.

00:20:06: It's this moment after The US ambassador left notes stay.

00:20:08: We'd usually Have a conversation.

00:20:10: uh and the Prison official asked me.

00:20:12: he goes I haven't.

00:20:13: You know can you be?

00:20:14: Well He says Yvonne Can you Be honest?

00:20:16: can you Tell Me what do you Think Of Vladimir Putin?

00:20:18: he Goes you Know I Biden and Trump, I just look at them.

00:20:22: And Putin's a very different

00:20:25: level.".

00:20:25: So you can respect certain decisions while still thinking the person is doing the morally wrong thing... blah-blah-bloh!

00:20:41: But what was really funny about this moment?

00:20:43: to me?

00:20:49: And if I'm a journalist, then what am i doing here?

00:20:53: You know they referred to me.

00:20:55: They would always call me a journalist not a spy.

00:20:57: so it was kind of amazing too this sort of insight.

00:20:58: The offer sense in the prison

00:21:00: yeah.

00:21:00: So there's some sort of inside into.

00:21:02: you know...I think This idea..you on one hand It's Not easy To go through prison and its hard and you don't Know when your gonna get out.

00:21:10: that is your main fear.

00:21:12: but On other Hand I know how their treating Me That they're not going to be Doing the worst for me.

00:21:19: You were reporting in Ukraine and around the same time Victoria Russian, a colleague of ours was taken captive.

00:21:25: Russia occupying Ukraine And she's tortured and killed In russian prison and sent back not in a swap like me but in A body bag without her organs.

00:21:34: so there is you know passport.

00:21:36: it kind Of

00:21:37: It's.

00:21:37: I'm a valuable thing to be used.

00:21:40: i am Not an Ukrainian Enemy that they're gonna torture and murder.

00:21:45: So That helps understand that you can have conversations like this, obviously.

00:21:50: Was there a point where he was scared they might torture or violence is involved?

00:21:56: Only the beginning.

00:21:58: and as soon it becomes clear... There's moment in prison.

00:22:04: on one day I got windy piece of dust or dirt out my eye.

00:22:17: See the prisoners and on the way.

00:22:19: The whole prison's in commotion.

00:22:22: They're running around.

00:22:23: they're asking if I need an ambulance, you know a guy treats me.

00:22:27: put solution of the eye.

00:22:29: It You know expels the dirt.

00:22:33: there's little scrape.

00:22:34: he tells me just need to.

00:22:36: you know We need to put these drops in your eyes every morning afternoon evening And later The prison warden would come check in on me before every visit to the US ambassador ask if everything was okay.

00:22:49: They clearly didn't want me to complain.

00:22:50: You know, so it's.

00:22:51: you know It's a big global case And I said y'all i'm actually surprised at how much?

00:22:56: You guys are taking care of me and he He says well Of course we're concerned about your health and I say I joke.

00:23:03: I say Well because yeah cuz the package can't be undamaged Otherwise, it's value.

00:23:08: Yeah and he looks checks his shoulder And then gets all serious because you know I didn't tell you this.

00:23:14: but yes So you know?

00:23:15: It's this open its kind of open Conversation.

00:23:19: so in that come-in That situation is obviously a lot easier to not worry about torture.

00:23:26: Did you witness or did you hear from other inmates That torture or violence was my?

00:23:32: my cellmate had spent time with Ukrainians other summits and you would speak about, you know stuff We've reported on obviously how they were be kept in southern Russian prisons.

00:23:42: And Russia and prisons in Ukrainian Russian occupied territory.

00:23:46: Beaten hosed down with cold water not fed until they lose half their weight You know told are never gonna see their families again.

00:23:55: I met in the second prison, I met Russians who were tortured.

00:24:00: I met a Russian Muslim guy who they accused of sending money to terrorists in Syria.

00:24:07: They took him with the same FSB station Yikata and Berge that i was taken too.

00:24:12: He was tied up to a chair like this electrocuted.

00:24:15: he said they connected electrodes.

00:24:17: his testicles electrocute for three days They give them food or water four three days and they were trying to get him to sign papers attesting his guilt, that was it.

00:24:27: And he wouldn't sign the papers.

00:24:28: so they kept torturing him.

00:24:30: eventually I guess they figured out He wasn't going to assign them.

00:24:33: They tossed into prison.

00:24:34: So you encounter these horrific stories.

00:24:37: but i think Aside from a fact there's lot of attention on my case and used for swap.

00:24:43: Im also journalist.

00:24:46: You know im gonna write about this weather Report series articles when got get out or a book like I did, and they're very calculating in this way.

00:24:54: And what they want to do is say well we traded him while on fine he has due process.

00:25:00: anything i talk about are right.

00:25:01: that's second hand fake news.

00:25:03: thats the journalist making stuff up

00:25:07: but still being imprisoned for five hundred days then much worse than the first, right?

00:25:15: One was a condition there.

00:25:17: It wasn't... it was much worst.

00:25:18: you know we had yeah There's rats running in the walls and there are mosquitoes in here.

00:25:23: its difficult.

00:25:25: I would sometimes put in cells with people who have fought for Wagner In Ukraine won their freedom And then come back.

00:25:31: You're nervous to be in cells of them.

00:25:33: What if they learn that were within America Or

00:25:35: attack me?

00:25:36: Yeah Attacked me.

00:25:37: So i don't want make seem like is easiest thing.

00:25:40: But main thing really this Fear of the swap not working out.

00:25:46: You know and so I had

00:25:47: did you get information?

00:25:48: I

00:25:49: had information.

00:25:49: So

00:25:50: because I remember when the first time a source here in Germany told me And that was still related to Navalny mm-hmm That there was a plan

00:25:59: Exactly

00:26:00: swapping the valley with it to gotten killer, and I was like This will never work out in Germany.

00:26:07: I mean, our chancellor... They would criticize him.

00:26:10: how can you swap somebody from a German prison?

00:26:14: In the

00:26:14: U.S.,

00:26:14: it has his tradition and history- Of course!

00:26:18: But for Germany.. For Germany

00:26:19: i was like this won't ever work out.

00:26:21: so had to say feeling like you

00:26:22: Which is what l was thinking.

00:26:23: So my fear was much more What if Germany never agrees And Russia could wait forever Or even forever or twenty years?

00:26:30: You know that im valuable.

00:26:31: As for them I intuited it, but then my Russian lawyers Tatiana and Maria come to the prison each week.

00:26:42: And interns at their law firm are translating Western news articles into Russian so they can bring them in to the cell.

00:26:54: that weren't censored.

00:26:55: So I was reading in from

00:26:56: your

00:26:57: loved ones, my friends and family and colleagues And My Friends had created this website where people could write when they were translated to Russian That yeah...and then later AI started helping them at the beginning.

00:27:08: They we're doing it by hand Uh..And uh..I. so In May i remember being It-it Was in may they brought an article From CNN.

00:27:18: cnn Had reported that The Biden administration was trying To scour the world for Russian spies held in other prisons to not use this Krasikov way.

00:27:29: And they were trying do a deal.

00:27:31: that was so my hopes go up, you know maybe...

00:27:34: May twenty-twenty three?

00:27:35: May twenty two months after I'm arrested and may be there's ways of doing it without Germany.

00:27:41: In October They bring another story also by CNN.

00:27:45: Russia has rejected an offer.

00:27:50: So then I'm okay.

00:27:51: It's really through Berlin but at the same time, then Boyan and Alan Cullison at The Wall Street Journal regular guests here on podcast Colleague of mind at the Wall Street journal.

00:28:02: he in another colleague former colleague of ours Alan Cullen at the wall journal reported that there was this idea coming together where Paul Whelan And myself the two Americans in Russia would leave for the US.

00:28:15: Vadim Kraskov the FSB assassin the tear-garten Park killer Germany would go to Russia and Germany would receive Alexei Navalny as a kind of the reasoning was, so far I understand it's because he had been treated in Germany.

00:28:32: He has caused Celebrae, Olaf Scholz met him, Chancellor at that time felt told his aides that he is the bravest person you have ever meet That it will be way too pitchy for Germany getting something other people around it, German citizens.

00:28:49: So I have that information at the time.

00:28:51: But

00:28:51: you as a Russian expert

00:28:54: Yeah

00:28:55: Hearing that Germany wants Navalny Were you thinking this is something Putin would ever do?

00:29:02: At that point As a russian expert i was thinking he might... I thought there were the Khodorkovsky Mikhail Khodarkovsky who's sort of

00:29:12: I remember Big Oligarch... Big oligarch in twenty fourteen.

00:29:14: Exactly, as soon as this big oligarchy arrested him in twenty two thousand three because he had started moving into politics.

00:29:19: and Putin sends the signal No one Politics are monopolized.

00:29:24: i am in charge.

00:29:25: nobody can threaten my hold on power And he's kept in prison for ten years until his released and sent out early.

00:29:31: is Amnesty?

00:29:32: And I thought okay maybe you know when there's This You Know I think The Kremlin I Think Putin doesn't care about opponents held abroad Abroad because they kind of lose their power.

00:29:43: They don't speak to Russians, they're sort of out here with Navalny is debatable right?

00:29:47: He's the opposition leader.

00:29:48: but at that point maybe Because I'm Convincing myself That you know i want To believe that The swap Is possible i think oh interesting.

00:29:56: But i have a conversation With my lawyer At that Point about it and i say i didn't Think that this was.

00:30:04: This Would be Possible.

00:30:05: so i'm really surprised.

00:30:06: even Remember Saying i said i'm Really Surprised.

00:30:09: It's like a news

00:30:09: story.

00:30:10: Yeah, so I clearly believe that it is possible because they say why didn't think this was possible?

00:30:13: I'm surprised.

00:30:13: and she said I don't think so either.

00:30:14: but i'm surprised too.

00:30:17: So my lowest moment in prison the most difficult mentally and psychologically Was when I find out he's killed.

00:30:24: Because then I just think I'm devastated.

00:30:27: Just there's no way.

00:30:28: That wasn't February twenty-twenty

00:30:30: february twenty-four.

00:30:31: So I've been imprisoned for unique

00:30:33: security conference.

00:30:34: I remember it.

00:30:34: I saw Julia Navalnia In Munich.

00:30:37: yeah, she Getting the news of her husband being killed.

00:30:41: Yeah,

00:30:41: and it's horrifying for her we Were out on a walk And then we have We have three radio stations in the fort about that.

00:30:49: they play on a schedule will only listen to It On The Walk because there you can't turn it off?

00:30:55: And They Have Relax FM Which Is A music Channel and Then Two News Channels.

00:31:02: so That Day Relax FM is Playing and Suddenly They Switched To a News Channel which they never do, and we hear that Alexei Navalny has been killed.

00:31:11: And then they switch back to music...and I think what they wanted to do was send a message not just me but Russian dissidents in the prison Ukrainian civilians held in prison That this is What We Can Do To You?

00:31:21: Uh-

00:31:23: What Was The Mood Of The Prison At That Moment?

00:31:24: I'm only with my cellmate But so all i. He's Concerned About Me Because We've Been Talking about This Possible Swap.

00:31:33: and Yeah First It'S Almost Unbelievable.

00:31:37: Then we go back to the cell, put on the TV and I see news from The Munich Security Conference.

00:31:42: And Yuli Navalny speaking in a horrifying thinking of her which he's going through.

00:31:46: but i'm thinking you know...and I berate myself in the days ahead that I was thinking about my self and not Navalny who knew him personally.

00:31:55: and then he is murdered this way.

00:31:57: But there no way am ever getting out now..I wasn't creative enough To sort think how this deal would end up coming together.

00:32:06: And so I just decide, I have to think of prison as my new home basically.

00:32:09: This is where i live and can't imagine a future because the hardest situation for someone who's waiting for a swap in this falls.

00:32:17: hope it might happen tomorrow.

00:32:20: It makes

00:32:21: you crazy Because the easiest way through prison not easy but easier when know your end date or time.

00:32:28: So get into rhythm if you're thinking what would be tomorrow?

00:32:32: What about two months?

00:32:35: So we crafted with my cellmate a really strict schedule.

00:32:42: Wake up, you clean this out every day.

00:32:45: so they pick us up at six.

00:32:50: I would read until roll call.

00:32:51: at seven They bring breakfast.

00:32:53: What did he do?

00:32:54: I was reading all sorts of things but i'm trying to treat time there as the kind of PhD in Russian history sort.

00:33:01: if want learn as much Wait, it's a coping mechanism.

00:33:04: I'd actually wanted to write a book before i got arrested.

00:33:08: So you know rush is changing drac at stickly on there on the ground The kind of news reporting.

00:33:13: your doing doesn't completely capture all this autocratic You know dissent that rushes on.

00:33:19: so i started following characters thinking them in longer profiles And one coping mechanism i have when i get there Is i'm gonna keep reporting I'm gonna take notes on this.

00:33:28: I'm going to interview FSB officials other summits whatever.

00:33:31: But i'm also, going to read as much As I can.

00:33:33: deep in my understanding you

00:33:35: didn't have a TV In the second person.

00:33:37: no in The first prison?

00:33:38: I just don't want to watch it.

00:33:38: we both Didn't Want To Watch TV all day.

00:33:40: go down up

00:33:41: again now.

00:33:41: yeah so keep.

00:33:42: My cellmate was reading.

00:33:43: he wasn't

00:33:43: ocean and

00:33:45: exactly Yeah.

00:33:47: And my cellmate He You know he Was treating his time is sort of I want to make A lot Of money when I get at Prison.

00:33:53: I'm Wasting My time here, so he was studying economics and finances.

00:33:56: Who?

00:33:56: Was that a Russian?

00:33:56: This is the cell mates I've made into one.

00:34:00: they all had similar crime which is weapons dealing And He really wanted to use his time to study up.

00:34:08: So we're both reading...I'm reading Russian novel-

00:34:11: Was it just trading weapons with the country Russia didn't like or what?

00:34:16: No i think What's happening?

00:34:19: They have these.

00:34:21: They had these like weapons workshop, not workshops but kind of little factories.

00:34:29: And in the summer of twenty-twenty one right before the full scale invasion The FSB extends the maximum sentence for this crime from eight years to fifteen and they start shutting down all these Weapons Factories.

00:34:42: I think In retrospect what was happening Was ahead of the Invasion that started shoring up who has the supply.

00:34:48: So it's actually he ended, you know He's not a political prisoner but it seems like those people Ended up there because of the war too.

00:34:54: But I'm reading Russian novels russian history gulag memoirs and my mom at one point gets all Concerned.

00:35:01: she's like why don't you read something?

00:35:03: were you able to more fun an entertainer?

00:35:05: We talked her on the phone or

00:35:07: letters And then messages through my lawyers when they would come.

00:35:10: but yeah

00:35:10: You couldn't hear what

00:35:11: if i wasn't allowed calls Or visits.

00:35:14: so I was only allowed letters.

00:35:16: Yeah

00:35:18: Navalny is dead.

00:35:19: Yeah, you lose moment.

00:35:20: yeah You would think I don't know if I get out here in the next ten years.

00:35:25: fifteen years twenty.

00:35:26: well i'm still hoping like Five but that's a lot longer than year and a half or three?

00:35:31: You know when it was only a year-in.

00:35:33: so I was thinking oh ya know When

00:35:35: did hope come back.

00:35:37: So I Decide no longer am I gonna be learning about this swap?

00:35:42: Don't tell me anything outside world.

00:35:44: I don' want to hear any talks.

00:35:46: I'm focusing on my life Here again into rhythm.

00:35:48: And so the pre-trial investigation ends at fifteen months.

00:35:53: My learner think, well okay that's pretty standard.

00:35:55: That means the swap talks haven't really gone anywhere.

00:35:58: I'm sent back to Eucidenberg for trial and in first hearing of trial late June The judge actually tells us we're taking a six week recess.

00:36:07: i am taking my summer vacation.

00:36:09: June

00:36:10: twenty

00:36:10: twenty four.

00:36:10: Right exactly.

00:36:11: So fifteen month end June twenty forty.

00:36:14: Late June, twenty-twenty four.

00:36:15: the judge says we're taking a six week recess.

00:36:18: I'm going on my summer holiday and my hopes sink.

00:36:22: Think.

00:36:22: okay well swap tux clearly aren't going.

00:36:24: Well they're not rushing this.

00:36:25: They're now trying to rush to get me convicted.

00:36:28: two weeks later My lawyer arrives And so as i think it's happening say what's happened?

00:36:33: She has I think that swaps happenin What do you mean?

00:36:36: she goes well.

00:36:37: yesterday I got a call from The FSB Saying That We Need To Request to have the trial moved up, because it's always theater.

00:36:45: We have to request they can't just move the trail up and we need the trial to start on Wednesday next Wednesday an end-on

00:36:53: Friday.".

00:36:55: And she goes...she is like well..we need some time to prepare.

00:36:59: this was too quick!

00:37:01: The FSB official says It's in everybody best interest for the trial by friday as in wink wink wink.

00:37:10: This all that you We need to.

00:37:13: you know, things need to hurry up.

00:37:14: Swaps been agreed So they negotiate to have it start on Thursday and then on Friday the trial.

00:37:21: so two days.

00:37:22: And we write this request You know?

00:37:24: We write this appeal saying my vites rights Have been violated by The extension.

00:37:29: in how long my hearing is going?

00:37:31: the judge replies from his vacation saying yeah I agree And I'm happy to hear the case earlier and everything gets sped up.

00:37:38: So, I don't know when that swap is going to happen.

00:37:40: at that point It ends up happening three weeks later August first of twenty-twenty four.

00:37:45: but in that point i know All But No Okay The Swap's Going To Be Happening.

00:37:50: They're Telling Us We Need To Get The Show On The Road.

00:37:52: Basically

00:37:52: What was it feeling inside you?

00:37:54: Its interesting...I mean..it Was Really Mixed.

00:37:59: I Felt.

00:38:01: I Say To My Lawyer Im Not Ready is the first thing I say, and that's one of the first times when i feel kind of tears.

00:38:09: Not ready for what?

00:38:10: For the swap!

00:38:13: The main reason... When you're institutionalized and been in prison that long That's what you know You are worried about what return to normal life will be like Really?

00:38:25: Yeah Oh my god, and then I also... My position in life had changed.

00:38:34: Right?

00:38:34: I go on as a reporter kind of you know an unknown reporter In a way aside for my community people who report on Russia Ukraine And so on.

00:38:42: I followed You before.

00:38:43: Exactly we follow each other So We Know Each Other.

00:38:46: Our Community Knows Each Other But It's Not Like Every American Knows Me.

00:38:51: And Suddenly On My Face Has Been In Times Square Putin Spoken About Me Biden.

00:39:01: But then I get giddy.

00:39:03: You know, you don't want to...I get back in my cell and am sitting there thinking oh my god freedom is coming!

00:39:08: And that i'm sort of pacing up-and down myself excited.

00:39:11: so it's a kind of dual thing but its strange at the beginning this sort of yeah

00:39:17: How was it too than finally prison?

00:39:22: It

00:39:22: has been best feeling for me as well.

00:39:28: First, it's excruciating because the days go by you know.

00:39:31: The swaps gonna happen and its not happening.

00:39:32: It's not happening.

00:39:34: then finally the morning they come on August first And Russia is very bureaucratic as a very legalistic gift to sign all these papers.

00:39:41: Putin We forget he finished law school in the whole system sort of even though there was a ninety nine point seven percent Conviction rate?

00:39:48: Its incredibly formulaic.

00:39:50: So They Come In The Morning May Say You Need To Sign These Papers That and You Like What Papers?

00:39:55: and Is Just Says I Understand that i'm Leaving Prison.

00:39:58: so then it's just sort of.

00:40:00: It's just this feeling Of absolute joy and giddiness, but then he gets extended over time.

00:40:05: first you're waiting for them to take You do the bus?

00:40:07: And then your on the bus for a while.

00:40:08: Then they drive to the airport when you're waitin' For The plane and then you fly three hours To turkey.

00:40:13: So its this extension of what am I actually free?

00:40:15: who was with you in the plane like?

00:40:18: so

00:40:19: When i get i assume right away that when i'm told the swaps happen In i assume Right Away.

00:40:25: That is going to be You know, not just myself in the swap.

00:40:31: I assume it's still for classic of this is the way that the swap was going to be done.

00:40:36: And i get too Back.

00:40:38: we got back till affordable prison high security prison and Moscow and Get put in this wing That usually closed off?

00:40:47: Then see these temporary papers with numbers above the cells about them.

00:40:51: I can't count how many.

00:40:52: so It seems like they've gathered.

00:40:54: some people Had a dinner.

00:40:57: I hear the cart rolling and I here these the feeders opening and shutting, and I count about twelve.

00:41:02: I Think so i think oh my god it's A big group of people.

00:41:05: we get let out on The bus And i see all These russian political prisoners uh?

00:41:11: Then i See some People i don't recognize.

00:41:12: these are the german citizens who were in the swap.

00:41:14: and then did

00:41:15: you see the teargarten killer?

00:41:17: Oh no this is ours In moscow this Is in Moscow yeah.

00:41:20: So i see that It's actually Group Of sixteen of Us and Americans when We Get to turkey And they bring us off.

00:41:28: They brought the Americans of first until we get put on one small bus and then the Russians in the Germans are going to Germany, but another... We don't see the Russian's coming back.

00:41:38: We see these private jets lining the runway in Ankara.

00:41:44: so you know that Russia from different countries is there.

00:41:47: But I had been hoping to be able ask a tear garden Killer at least a question or two

00:41:53: interview him.

00:41:54: Yeah, because so in other swaps you usually walk past each other.

00:41:57: So Brittney Griner and Victor boot the weapons dealer Pasted each other and they even shook hands And I thought maybe we'll be walking.

00:42:04: what's groups?

00:42:05: What would you've asked them?

00:42:06: Uh, I wanted to know what his plans were.

00:42:09: Would he get back to work?

00:42:11: Because that was a guilt I felt over this whole situation That You Know as a result of this swap.

00:42:18: I mean I am obviously happy that I was swapped and I believe that the moral good of releasing not just me, but you know these group this big group of prisoners outweighs The Moral Harm Of Releasing That Group of.

00:42:32: You Know The Killer and the other Spies.

00:42:34: But I did feel to Feel a guilt about it.

00:42:37: Yeah This guy's free now.

00:42:40: But i felt guilty from the moment of their arrest because i thought okay i've fallen into this trap.

00:42:44: They're taking Me To Stack Americans To put pressure on Berlin And I Thought My Freedom Lay Through.

00:42:51: So I was feeling guilt actually earlier, but I'm Jewish.

00:42:53: You know there's this.

00:42:54: do you grow up with guilt?

00:42:56: We have Jew.

00:42:57: it's Catholic and Jewish guilt.

00:42:58: we Grow up this way Catholics in Jews And so i think that just sort of natural now natural state of affairs for me.

00:43:06: But yeah!

00:43:06: I wanted to ask him what his plans were uh...but didn't get the chance.

00:43:09: they let us all go past each other.

00:43:16: We flew to St.

00:43:19: Andrew's base in the US and Maryland, uh... And then we get off, you meet the president-the vice president of my family is there?

00:43:27: How was it

00:43:28: with Joe Biden back then?

00:43:29: Uh I mean It was really exciting.

00:43:32: You know this guy basically-I mean Olaf Scholz Made a swap happen Really but-How'd

00:43:39: ya met him?

00:43:39: But Joe

00:43:39: B-I have said thing-I've met him twice Said thank you to him twice keep meeting him and saying thank you to him.

00:43:46: Wolfgang Schmidt against Plotin, I've met a lot of the people who were involved in thanks them but Joe Biden had to call Olaf Scholz make their request.

00:43:54: obviously not like Scholz just decides.

00:43:56: oh i'm gonna do this.

00:43:57: so biden has to care about this enough.

00:43:59: it was really exciting to meet him and thank him.

00:44:02: what did biden tell

00:44:03: me?

00:44:03: he tried to keep everything private between us aside from this moment that include on book because they thought showed something.

00:44:12: talk as not a president and reporter, but just his two people.

00:44:17: My door is always open which I thought was very human.

00:44:20: it showed to me.

00:44:22: you know i don't know.

00:44:23: ultimately he cared about the swap because its principles in journalists.

00:44:27: But also your son died young.

00:44:29: Is that Because He Can Have Empathy For my Parents?

00:44:31: I think It Just Showed How Much He Caret.

00:44:34: So Its Exciting To Meet Him And Say Thank You.

00:44:37: Then Get To Immediately Hug My Family.

00:44:39: But then We Flew On To San Antonio In Texas for this kind of intake hospital where they did tests on us, whether we were sick or you know vaccines for whatever.

00:44:50: We might have needed.

00:44:52: So it was a long route.

00:44:53: It was Moscow to Turkey turkey to Maryland.

00:44:55: Maryland To I mean musko-danker anchor to mangle and met male to San Antonio And only then we flew to Philadelphia Where my family lives?

00:45:04: And Then obviously back to Germany.

00:45:05: How is it too hot your mother?

00:45:08: i don't even remember what we said each other but pure joy.

00:45:11: I remember picking her up, pure pure joy.

00:45:14: But you're...I mean i hadn't slept in twenty four hours and my mind is- I go from Russian prison to meeting Biden to now huggy my mother.

00:45:21: your brain is all over the place!

00:45:23: I don't think it really registers what's happening at a moment like that.

00:45:27: Evan one story um.. I could talk to you or you know like many more hours but I do want uh.... You have many things to do.

00:45:37: but my last question Because many people keep asking me that, you know like and I mean You're the expert.

00:45:44: I have no clue sometimes reporting from Ukraine but i mean so How long will this war go on first?

00:45:55: And second Will you ever go back to Russia?

00:45:59: do you see a chance for yourself To go Back to russia?

00:46:01: So The First Question is Is A Tough one?

00:46:05: I think it's Gonna Go On For Quite A while It Feels Like It's at A stalemate Right Now Both sides advance here, advance there.

00:46:15: Ukraine takes back some territory and Russia advances here.

00:46:17: It's become this long-distance air war Which Russia hasn't upper hand in.

00:46:23: obviously because Russia can move it to rearback into the vast country deep.

00:46:28: And Ukraine has hit all these targets To stop its military weapon exports coming.

00:46:36: You cant' move Kiev.

00:46:40: Obviously, my country invaded Iran.

00:46:42: And so it's using its anti-defense missile.

00:46:45: patriots in the Middle East Ukraine desperately needs those.

00:46:48: It's harder to defend Kiev.

00:46:50: and Russia is also producing better drones engine powered drones that are hitting more and more.

00:46:57: So it's really difficult on assist supply chain war right?

00:46:59: can Russia keep getting?

00:47:01: The parts the weapons and financing at ease through China and Iran?

00:47:04: and can you crane Keep getting what he needs from the US from the u.s but also Europe.

00:47:10: But I don't see either side quitting anytime soon.

00:47:13: I think Vladimir Putin is very

00:47:15: Seymour.

00:47:16: stand power,

00:47:16: I think he.

00:47:17: it seems like he's got a hold on power.

00:47:19: You don't think you want to leave power?

00:47:21: He seems very focused on staying in power.

00:47:23: He only just turned seventy four so he's not too old yet and he seems very focussed On.

00:47:28: as he says he wants to take all the Donbass And there are these two stronghold cities left Uh...and he has complete control of Russia uh..And then Ukraine Democratic country Zelensky's.

00:47:40: beholden to the people, obviously.

00:47:42: And polls show that sixty-five percent of Ukrainians don't want to cede any territory in a peace agreement.

00:47:47: so they're still very intransient on the fact that they wanna keep fighting.

00:47:52: and those two stronghold cities Khromotorysk and Slavyansk in Donbass are key to Ukraine's defense because after them there is kind of flat plain all the way to Kiev A long time and people need to be prepared for that.

00:48:09: I mean the Vietnam War took years, right?

00:48:12: Wars can go for a really long time.

00:48:15: Would like go back to Russia again.

00:48:18: i think it.

00:48:18: obviously The seventy-four year old they just mentioned will have To Be out of power not alive anymore.

00:48:24: I don't Think he's at a Power until He's Not Alive.

00:48:26: And Then It Depends What Kind Of Governments After Him.

00:48:30: I That Really Depends on the Context.

00:48:33: in the World If we're still in this kind of deepening global conflict within authoritarian acts is deepening.

00:48:38: I don't see a government, In the situation like that deciding it's going to now liberalize and reform And become an open democracy at The same time.

00:48:48: if Conflict has calmed hopefully by That point and Russia Has tried before i mean there was nineteen ninety one To nineteen ninety three Of an attempt At democracy and no more Open society.

00:48:59: It Is A place that Produces not Just alexandr volny but Boris Nemtsov and people who really do want an open, what they call the beautiful Russia of the future.

00:49:08: that actually is like a normal European country embedded in the European system.

00:49:12: It doesn't attack its

00:49:13: neighbors.".

00:49:13: There are people like that there so... In that event I would love to go back for a visit at some point.

00:49:20: it's a country means lot to me.

00:49:22: i'm not that optimistic but am only thirty four and history long maybe you know may be their will be chance.

00:49:31: Thank you so much for your time.

00:49:32: It's great to talk to you.

00:49:34: I'm, so happy that You got out of prison and um And please?

00:49:38: To all my listeners read Your book This curse beautiful land russian-american story.

00:49:45: thank you So Much For Being.

00:49:47: Thanks so much For Having me Paul.

00:49:48: this is wonderful.